View Full Version : New thread / thought process
USMC 0369
03-05-08, 11:34 AM
In doing my research for the JV thing...
I found that THIS GUY (http://www.hidesertstar.com/articles/2006/03/04/editorial/opinion5.txt) and his 'group' are holding an anti-ATV meeting tonight with one of the local town councils. Also he plans another meeting on April 5th (http://www.orvwatch.com/node/77).
I did a google search on this guy...HOLY COW he's off the deep end. This guy...literally...is the face of the radical left.
I'm not trying to distract anyone from JV; but this is actionable intel that I hope we can get people to come to these meetings. I'm planning to go tonight but I have other things to accomplish first, I know it's short notice so probably nobody else around here can make it. April 5th I'm leaving wide open for that meeting.
Have a great day! And if you'd like to help Phil have a nice day...his email is: pklasky@igc.org
Here it is:
Mr. Klaski,
I read your article (March 5 edition of the High Desert star), about the issues you have with the ORV riders in your area. I, myself am a responsible off road enthusiast, and I hate to hear when this type of activity takes place. I understand the frustration you express with toe ORV users, and law enforcement. I feel that same frustration in your description of these off roaders as “thugs and bullies”, only because the readers of your paper will more likely than not see this as a blanket statement of off road enthusiasts. You mention that you know who these people are, yet you do not make any clear statement that these particular people are perpetrating these alleged violations (no names); your comments lead me, and others who read your story, to believe that all off road enthusiasts are vile, law breaking idiots. That couldn’t be farther from the case. I am personally involved in the San Bernardino Volunteer Trail Maintenance teams (AAT) and know many hundreds of others who are as well. I and many of my friends spend a lot of our free time in the Johnson Valley OHV area, enjoying the trails and scenery that it has to offer. We wheel in the exact same areas that you mention in your article, and have never been approached by locals, law enforcement officers, or BLM personnel, other than to talk to us about our equipment and what we like to do. We routinely clean these areas; the most recent organized event was at Calico Ghost Town. Over 1000 off roaders attended this event and removed tons of garbage, left there by people who have nothing to do with off roading other than that is what they have to do to get rid of the garbage. We intend to choose other areas to clean up in the coming months and years. It is our stance that we have to maintain the areas we recreate in, not only for us, but for all who want to enjoy what these areas have to offer. I’m sure that if you would invite us out to these areas, we would bring a work crew the size of Texas and get rid of the trash, donut marks and other things that these less compassionate people leave behind. We are responsible people that have a love of off roading, and we don’t want to see that go away any more than you want to be accosted by thugs. There is a resource out there that you can tap to help you and your neighbors; we are that source. The few bad apples can not be allowed to ruin it for everyone.
Please, if you have any interest in contacting us, use any of these contact venues:
http://www.myjeeprocks.com/forums/index.php (http://www.myjeeprocks.com/forums/index.php)
diverk@hotmail.com (diverk@hotmail.com)
http://www.clean-dezert.org/ (http://www.clean-dezert.org/)
Or you can call or email at the address below.
Thank you, and I hope to hear from soon,
Kurt Kauffman
Western Service Manager
Busch LLC.
13826 Struikman Road
Cerritos, CA 90703
Office 562-926-8422
Fax 562-926-7262
Cell 562-244-1414
Email kkauffman@buschusa.com (kkauffman@buschusa.com)
USMC 0369
03-05-08, 02:20 PM
I can't get any further information on tonights meeting, so I'm going to let that one go.
Kurt,
Outstanding job. Good relay of our position of "Yes, there are idiots out there mucking things up, WE are trying to stop them as well." And reinforcement that the off-road community in large are good people. We do A LOT of work trying to keep public lands open to the public. I wish he'd have actually caught the people on private lands and had them prosecuted to the fullest extent possible. But, he didn't. Read this fellow's background to include the YouTube videos of him.
I must post this rebuttal (http://www.hidesertstar.com/articles/2006/03/11/editorial/opinion2.txt) that posted in the same paper days after Mr. Klasky's editorial was posted.
Kodiak Spirit
03-05-08, 02:57 PM
wow, that's a nice rebuttal. I tire of the finger pointing lefties that cry about the "bad people." they never have any names and they are allways the victims and they can never do anything about it on their own, they allways cry about how law enforcement can't do enough, or the politicians dont hear their cries... and these same people are afraid of guns and big 4x4s and motorcycles... they are limp wristed sissies and the govornment is down on one knee bending their ear to them. It makes me sick. and it looks like the pied piper for these bastards is gonna be the next president. I wanna puke.
sorry. rant over.
oh, but I went to the OHV plate link and signed up. the only thing is, I will be getting 4 plates, one set fer each vehicle... but I can only sign once?
It seems like every day someone new pops up to close public lands.
Kurt & Nick, great writing. Thanks
USMC 0369
03-05-08, 04:04 PM
Hold on Roger...
I didnt do the legwork on it, so I don't want to post anything and steal his thunder, but this group is anti-illegal off-roading. But lumps us all together, or certain members of www.orvwatch.com do that.
Blaine...hurry and post on the JV thread...I'm all giddy!
Dave84cj7
03-05-08, 04:08 PM
These nuts even have their own songs and their own "Cow Players" to perform them. I don't know if these types can be reasonable.
http://www.orvwatch.com/node/12
mrblaine
03-05-08, 04:19 PM
Hold on Roger...
I didnt do the legwork on it, so I don't want to post anything and steal his thunder, but this group is anti-illegal off-roading. But lumps us all together, or certain members of www.orvwatch.com do that.
Blaine...hurry and post on the JV thread...I'm all giddy!
Most pleasant and encouraging news. I just got off the phone with a member of the steering committee for this organization.
http://www.orvwatch.com/pages/about_us.html
They were unaware that there were any plans for encroachment into the JV area by the military. They absolutely want JV kept open and intact.
That consider that their best avenue for stopping illegal ORV use on private and public lands. If they can re-direct and educate riders and abusers to the proper areas to recreate, that is a huge benefit to all parties involved.
It's far better for them to have a legal place to ride than to be shut down completely. We all know that only leads to more illegal activities.
The member I spoke with says he will bring this to the attention of the other members and they will develop a plan of action to assist in keeping JV open and intact.
I was very pleased.
There you go, copy and paste as needed.
mrblaine
03-05-08, 04:20 PM
These nuts even have their own songs and their own "Cow Players" to perform them. I don't know if these types can be reasonable.
http://www.orvwatch.com/node/12
Be careful how you judge, sometimes what's on the cover, ain't in the book.
Dave84cj7
03-05-08, 04:42 PM
Well I hope you're right.I will retract my "nuts and "unreasonable" comments since you have spoken with them and feel otherwise. You are certainly more informed on the issue than I am.
Well I hope you're right.I will retract my "nuts and "unreasonable" comments since you have spoken with them and feel otherwise. You are certainly more informed on the issue than I am.
Yes, thank you. Please be careful not to employ the same tactics that this gentleman does; lables and pidgeon-holing does no one any good.
Blaine, Thanks for the news.
mrblaine
03-05-08, 06:21 PM
wow, that's a nice rebuttal. I tire of the finger pointing lefties that cry about the "bad people." they never have any names and they are allways the victims and they can never do anything about it on their own, they allways cry about how law enforcement can't do enough, or the politicians dont hear their cries... and these same people are afraid of guns and big 4x4s and motorcycles... they are limp wristed sissies and the govornment is down on one knee bending their ear to them. It makes me sick. and it looks like the pied piper for these bastards is gonna be the next president. I wanna puke.
sorry. rant over.
oh, but I went to the OHV plate link and signed up. the only thing is, I will be getting 4 plates, one set fer each vehicle... but I can only sign once?
It's a semi-nice rebuttal. Unfortunately, the use of the word "many" in the title is as misleading as lumping all OHV users in the same category as the miscreants.
The word should be "Majority" as that is the truth. The majority of OHV users recreate responsibly in designated areas and do so with no supervision other than their own desire to set the example for those who would pay attention and want to learn.
mrblaine
03-05-08, 06:50 PM
This last President's Birthday holiday weekend, ORV riders engaged in wholesale trespass and destruction of public and private lands throughout the Morongo Basin as residents were left helpless and abandoned by law enforcement. The results, according to our review of the aftermath (check out the photos at our Web site www.orvwatch.com) is both shocking and disheartening.
Who here on this board hasn't felt the same way after working with the Forest Service doing repairs to block off illegal trails, or, driving by some of the areas that have been ravaged by OHV users in illegal areas?
Not taking sides, but it appears in this case, his opinion is fairly earned.
We warned both the San Bernardino Sheriff's Department and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) ahead of time that the same outlaws, just like years before, would be gathering at specific sites in the Landers, Flamingo Heights, Morongo Valley, Yucca Valley, Joshua Tree and Wonder Valley areas.
Sounds to me like they are being pro-active based on the events of years past and I don't get the impression that he's pointing a finger at me because I don't participate in outlaw behaviors out there
From these staging areas, where there is generally a lot of drinking (and who knows what else), noise and dust and riding at all hours of the day and night, these riders rage in convoys and trespass on both private and public land with impunity.
He could have left out the speculation about who knows what else, but based on what I've seen in JV at Thanksgiving, sounds like he's describing a few camps we've moved away from, except for the trespass part.
This year the destruction exceeded all others with extensive damage to private property and criminal trespass of clearly signed wilderness areas. You can see purposeful trespass, “donuts” cut into the ground, right next to “no trespassing” and wilderness boundary signs as riders flagrantly defy the law. These scars will last for decades or longer and are the result of a weekend of reckless ORV play.
Who on this board thinks it okay to trespass and cause destruction in clearly signed wilderness areas?
Those of us who have either confronted these riders, or have called law enforcement on them have been threatened and personally attacked. The Sheriff's Department has told us they don't have the manpower to respond and the BLM ignored our calls, letters and e-mails for help.
The gentleman I spoke with today stated that he had been attacked while employing a tactic that is highly recommended to anyone who witnesses illegal activity on the 'Con, or elsewhere. He had a camera and was taking their pictures while they were trespassing.
To make matters worse, the state ORV division just denied the San Bernardino Sheriff's Department Yucca Valley branch badly needed law enforcement dollars over a political fight between government bureaucracies.
Don't know enough to comment. But if the dollars are needed for enforcement, I can understand the frustration. Personally, I'd like to see a much higher Ranger presence in JV on the big weekends to calm some folks down a bit. In the 50 or 60 times I've been out there, I've only seen Rangers 3 times.
We have identified many of the violators since they own property in the Hi-Desert for the sole purpose of staging on holiday weekends from where they wreak havoc wherever they want. When one of our members complained to the authorities about ORV trespass and harassment, a group of ten thugs on their quads, sand rails and motorcycles drove over to his house and screamed threats at him.
Who thinks this is appropriate behavior for anyone regardless of whether or not they own land?
They come back year after year and do whatever they want and after they do their dirty work, they go back home.
Would you be happy if you had crappy neighbors that only show up a few times a year to crap in your neighborhood?
Community ORV Watch members have put in thousands of volunteer hours working with law enforcement and elected officials to find constructive solutions to the ORV crisis. We need new elected leadership to turn this situation around and people must exercise their right to vote and speak out.
It is up to residents to start making some big changes and join forces to protect our quality of life.
Sounds to me like they would like to have the outlaw ORV contingent move to a designated legal riding area and away from homes and wilderness areas. If they are working with Law Enforcement, it sure doesn't sound like the folks they are referring to are exactly legal, does it?
Perhaps it is time that we engage in direct action to prevent further destruction of our lands.
He could have done himself more good by leaving that statement out.
The BLM has given up on their responsibility to protect public lands in the Hi-Desert. Invaluable historic, cultural and natural resources are being destroyed by illegal ORV activity. The Sheriff's Department needs funds to be able to hunt down and catch the violators. Local realtors advertise to riders that they can purchase cheap desert land and “bring their toys.” Check out the notices, letters and messages on their Web sites and you will see that ORV riders consider our desert community a free-for-all for illegal activity. On this last president's birthday holiday weekend, they were right.
I'd be a lot more receptive to these comments if he had posted some links so we could see for ourselves. I'm not much of a fan of vigilante-ism and I'd much prefer he wasn't touting it as a possible solution.
I did send links to several boards where these issues are being discussed rationally though. I'll forward a link to this thread as well.
I did send links to several boards where these issues are being discussed rationally though. I'll forward a link to this thread as well.
I agree with your assessment of this story. He has valid complaints but doesn't support them with tangible evidence. I don't agree with the way he writes. It's too general, written in first person experiences instead of a non-biased reporting style (he is a reporter/colunmnist), in a public forum accessable to millions. This is how misunderstanding gets it's start. I've found all kinds of negative publicity about off roaders, the worst of it coming from the people that we (I'm speaking of the volunteers all around SoCal) spend our time helping. Check this link:
http://www.peer.org/news/news_id.php?row_id=953
http://www.peer.org/campaigns/publiclands/orv/index.php
This page links to others. The Rangers of the BLM have thier own group that is using individual incidents to paint a total picture of our sport. It seems that most all of the articles I've read are written by people who have a major hard on for off roaders, and don't seem to care to take the time and look at what the majority of us are about. We need a voice as passionate about our side of the issue as the detractors have for thiers.
And yes, I know that there are bad people in our sport that don't give a damn about the environment, but there a lot more that do.
Rat
mrblaine
03-06-08, 07:52 AM
I agree with your assessment of this story. He has valid complaints but doesn't support them with tangible evidence. I don't agree with the way he writes. It's too general, written in first person experiences instead of a non-biased reporting style (he is a reporter/colunmnist), in a public forum accessable to millions.
Put the shoe on the other foot. I can only relate my wheeling and offroad recreation style in first person experiences, in general terms, and I have no real tangible evidence as proof. The best I can do is talk about it in very biased terms promoting the way I would like to see folks recreate, and hopefully several hundred or so see it and it sinks in to one or two.
This is how misunderstanding gets it's start. I've found all kinds of negative publicity about off roaders, the worst of it coming from the people that we (I'm speaking of the volunteers all around SoCal) spend our time helping. Check this link:
http://www.peer.org/news/news_id.php?row_id=953
This page links to others. The Rangers of the BLM have thier own group that is using individual incidents to paint a total picture of our sport. It seems that most all of the articles I've read are written by people who have a major hard on for off roaders, and don't seem to care to take the time and look at what the majority of us are about. We need a voice as passionate about our side of the issue as the detractors have for thiers.
And yes, I know that there are bad people in our sport that don't give a damn about the environment, but there a lot more that do.
Rat
You need to go read those articles again. Read them and replace the word "offroader" with outlaw and they will make sense. They are not talking about you and I, or anyone that I wheel with.
They are talking about resource damage, spark arrestor violations, and venturing into wilderness habitat by not staying on the trails.
They are referencing the same folks that would cause you to be phenomenally irritated if you were to see them participating in the same activities.
What would you do if you saw someone off trail in Big Bear?
Anyone reading those articles needs to find a way to delineate themselves from the cause of the problem, take their emotions out of it and understand the finger of blame is not pointed at them, but at the outlaw offroaders.
If you don't recreate offroad on public lands and in the Forest in an irresponsible manner, then the article is not about you nor are you the reason that PEER exists.
I personally don't condone one single act of reckless offroading and if everyone who owned an offroad vehicle felt and acted the same way, those articles nor PEER would exist.
USMC 0369
03-06-08, 07:56 AM
written in first person experiences instead of a non-biased reporting style (he is a reporter/colunmnist)
Actually, Philip Klansky is a professor at university in San Fransisco. But I do see both sides to this issue.
I was VERY anti Philip Klansky...and ergo anti-orvwatch...
I did the mistake that we're talking about others making. I'm old enough I can admit when I've made a quick judgement. I read this blog. (http://ronslog.typepad.com/ronslog/2007/12/phil-klasky-ame.html) in it's entire context.
HOWEVER...I pose this question...how many times have [we] seen another offroader doing something that we KNOW would be detrimental to the sport if the wrong person snapped a photograph and posted it on-line or brought it to a meeting...and yet we didn't say anything to them?
Better yet...have I done anything to that effect?
I've seen off-roaders who drive with open beers in their vehicle... "It's only a beer.", "What about it?" is mostly what I hear. To wit, "Uh...it's illegal, and I don't think it's a good representation of our community." or "You're speaking for all off-roaders right now...what are you saying."
Thats usually followed by some form of, "F@#$K YOU", or "You don't have to wheel with me..." and I don't.
Bottom line... I was too quick to judgement about Philip and about orvwatch as a group. In an effort to keep LEGAL free-wheeling areas open, we may find many allies amongst those that want to STOP ILLEGAL wheeling because JV is the ONLY place to do it in and around the Morongo Basin.
Here is Mr. Klaski's response to my email:
Mr. Kaufmann -- thank you for your thoughtful letter. We believe that those who ride legally and respectfully have both an opportunity as well as obligation to educate the lawless. There are many riders who are members of our organization and they are working hard to educate the riding public.
Our organization was formed because of widespread trespass and destruction of our private property and harassment and intimidation by riders who retaliate against their neighbors when they call for relief.
I have been physically attacked on my own property by a rider on a quad while I was armed with only a camera as he rode past "no trespassing" signs right onto my property. His comment to me (minus the swearing) "I will ride wherever I want." I have neighbor who received death threats and a visit by gang of motorcyclists cutting donuts into his private property. I know a woman in her 70s who feels like she is a prisoner in her own home on holiday weekends. One of our member's dogs were poisoned by riders retaliating against a call to the Sheriff when they rode day and night past his home and trespassed on his property. There are many more horror stories -- we hear them all the time. This is part of our motivation to advocate for more public education, law enforcement, and stiffer penalties. Johnson Valley is the largest ORV open area in the entire country, yet trespass of our private and public lands continues at an alarming rate.
You are invited to attend a conference on April 5th in Joshua Tree where we welcome the participation of responsible riders who want be part of the solution. We would like to see riders like yourself write letters to the editor in the local newspapers encouraging other riders to act within the law.
When I visited the myjeeprocks site where you posted your letter to me, I was disturbed to find numerous derogatory posts with name-calling, disregard for the law and disrespect for others. As a participant in these sites, you can begin to address the problem by countering this kind of abuse.
-- Phil Klasky, Community ORV Watch
mrblaine
03-06-08, 08:25 AM
When I visited the myjeeprocks site where you posted your letter to me, I was disturbed to find numerous derogatory posts with name-calling, disregard for the law and disrespect for others. As a participant in these sites, you can begin to address the problem by countering this kind of abuse.
-- Phil Klasky, Community ORV Watch
Every single person that feels the need to comment on anything about the JV issue needs to keep the above comment in mind. There are a lot of folks watching this and if we don't step up and set the example, we become at the very least apathetic if not appearing to side with the outlaws at best.
Put the shoe on the other foot.
I do put the shoe on the other foot. I'm not arguing his point; I'm arguing the way they are being reported.
You need to go read those articles again. Read them and replace the word "offroader" with outlaw and they will make sense. They are not talking about you and I, or anyone that I wheel with.
Again, it's not what's being said, it's how it's being said. More specific statements should be used to open the story (Motorcylce riders without spark arrestors vs. ORV, a general term that covers a wide variety of users). The average person forms an opinion in the first few lines of an artcile, sentences in a converstation, etc. and if the rest of the artcile/conversation is not persuasivie and factual enough that opinion is not changed.
They are referencing the same folks that would cause you to be phenomenally irritated if you were to see them participating in the same activities.
not specific enough to remove them from the general off road poulation.
What would you do if you saw someone off trail in Big Bear?
Been there, done that. Got the finger and a F-you dick head...
Anyone reading those articles needs to find a way to delineate themselves from the cause of the problem, take their emotions out of it and understand the finger of blame is not pointed at them, but at the outlaw offroaders.
If you don't recreate offroad on public lands and in the Forest in an irresponsible manner, then the article is not about you nor are you the reason that PEER exists.
I personally don't condone one single act of reckless offroading and if everyone who owned an offroad vehicle felt and acted the same way, those articles nor PEER would exist.
It's not off roaders I'm worried about, it's non off roaders who don't have any idea about us other than what they read in these articles. Truth or not, if the information is put out there in manner that makes us all look bad, it's bad for all of us.
Every single person that feels the need to comment on anything about the JV issue needs to keep the above comment in mind. There are a lot of folks watching this and if we don't step up and set the example, we become at the very least apathetic if not appearing to side with the outlaws at best.
That's part of what this is about. That's being discussed already.
Bottom line... I was too quick to judgement about Philip and about orvwatch as a group. In an effort to keep LEGAL free-wheeling areas open, we may find many allies amongst those that want to STOP ILLEGAL wheeling because JV is the ONLY place to do it in and around the Morongo Basin.
My point to Mr. Klaski, exactly.
mrblaine
03-06-08, 09:39 AM
It's not off roaders I'm worried about, it's non off roaders who don't have any idea about us other than what they read in these articles. Truth or not, if the information is put out there in manner that makes us all look bad, it's bad for all of us.
This has been my cross to bear if you will, from day one.
If we as responsible offroaders don't make the distinction that we are not the problem, then we can easily be made to look bad and lumped in with the outlaws.
I've made the point around many a campfire that my "brethren" offroaders are not exactly who I would like to go to bat for in a land use fight. It's difficult to spend the time and energy it takes for something like this while watching your neighbors in the desert send their kids through your camp at all hours on their mini quads while glaring at you daring you to say something.
It disturbs me that in order to keep my access, I have to fight for theirs, but that doesn't devalue the need.
At the end of the day, I may not be happy with my bedfellows, but I still need the bed.
My point being that if I struggle with the delineation, how can I expect others not connected with the offroad world to feel any differently.
We don't do enough to separate ourselves from those who give us a bad image and that single point will cost us more dearly than anything else. The worst part of all is that we are the vast majority and our apathy will be our ruination.
I'm as guilty as the next. We have folks in our camp from time to time that have no issue with drinking and driving and at some point there will be a delineation. If I step up and say something I'm accused of being the camp Daddy. If I don't, I'm apathetic and the lack of action translates into condonement.
That needs to change.
Thanks for a great thread guys. I haven't had a chance yet to read the articles and other links yet - but I will hopefully today.
FishPOET
03-06-08, 10:40 AM
When I visited the myjeeprocks site where you posted your letter to me, I was disturbed to find numerous derogatory posts with name-calling, disregard for the law and disrespect for others. As a participant in these sites, you can begin to address the problem by countering this kind of abuse.
Typical greenie stereotype of the OHV community.
Did Mr. Phil Klasky post a single FACT to back up his statement? I have been active on this board for two years now and it would take me the better part of a week to search threads and I would not be able to find Numerous posts with disregard for the law
I have been fighting the land closure battle for over 20 years.
How many OHV trails have we gained in the last 20 years?
How many acres of OHV land have we gained in the last 20 years?
The truth of the matter is that we have lost thousands of OHV trails in the last 20 years.
We have lost millions of OHV acres in the last 20 years.
Wilderness areas have increased by millions of acres in the last 20 years.
OHV sales and use has increased while places to ride have decreased.
Don't fall into the same old trap believing the extreme greenies are our friends. They are well funded and well organized with a mission statement of ridding the entire country of all OHV travel. Until Mr Klasky proves to me that he can speak intelligently about OHV use he will not be my bedfellow.
mrblaine
03-06-08, 10:49 AM
wow, that's a nice rebuttal. I tire of the finger pointing lefties that cry about the "bad people." they never have any names and they are allways the victims and they can never do anything about it on their own, they allways cry about how law enforcement can't do enough, or the politicians dont hear their cries... and these same people are afraid of guns and big 4x4s and motorcycles... they are limp wristed sissies and the govornment is down on one knee bending their ear to them. It makes me sick. and it looks like the pied piper for these bastards is gonna be the next president. I wanna puke.
FishPoet, there's one example
mrblaine
03-06-08, 10:50 AM
These nuts even have their own songs and their own "Cow Players" to perform them. I don't know if these types can be reasonable.
http://www.orvwatch.com/node/12
FishPoet, there's another example
mrblaine
03-06-08, 10:51 AM
Yes, thank you. Please be careful not to employ the same tactics that this gentleman does; lables and pidgeon-holing does no one any good.
Blaine, Thanks for the news.
FishPoet, there's another.
FishPOET
03-06-08, 11:33 AM
Numerous posts with disregard for the law
Did you by chance have trouble understanding my post?
FishPoet, there's another.
Did I mention something that was not true?
mrblaine
03-06-08, 11:42 AM
Did you by chance have trouble understanding my post?
No, did you misunderstand the part about name calling and disrespect?
When I visited the myjeeprocks site where you posted your letter to me, I was disturbed to find numerous derogatory posts with name-calling, disregard for the law and disrespect for others. As a participant in these sites, you can begin to address the problem by countering this kind of abuse.
I suspect strongly that he means if you can't distinguish between the message and the messenger, then you condone illegal behavior. A point I've very poorly been trying to get across.
FishPOET
03-06-08, 11:46 AM
Show me a single post where anyone from MJR disregards the law?
mrblaine
03-06-08, 11:47 AM
Did I mention something that was not true?
I wouldn't classify it as untrue, but it's certainly not meant to endear allies or garner more support for our needs and desires.
mrblaine
03-06-08, 11:51 AM
Show me a single post where anyone from MJR disregards the law?
I've already addressed that sentiment.
FishPOET
03-06-08, 12:06 PM
I've already addressed that sentiment.
Pretty much the same way Mr. Klasky did.
1/3 of his statement was blatantly untrue and you back Mr. Klasky's point of view instead of your fellow OHV enthusiasts from MJR?
mrblaine
03-06-08, 12:18 PM
Pretty much the same way Mr. Klasky did.
1/3 of his statement was blatantly untrue and you back Mr. Klasky's point of view instead of your fellow OHV enthusiasts from MJR?
Now you're the pot calling the kettle. If you read what I've been saying, the mere fact that you disagree with the whole premise of COW and PEER, you are condoning outlaw behavior.
FishPOET
03-06-08, 12:26 PM
Now you're the pot calling the kettle. If you read what I've been saying, the mere fact that you disagree with the whole premise of COW and PEER, you are condoning outlaw behavior.
I can choose to disagree with some of COW's and PEER's statements and ALL OHV outlaw behavior. So can you.
mrblaine
03-06-08, 12:37 PM
I can choose to disagree with some of COW's and PEER's statements and ALL OHV outlaw behavior. So can you.
I think that's a good distinction to be made and exactly the one I addressed when I made my phone call to one of the members of the steering committee.
I expressed my disappointment that not enough differences were immediately noticeable on their site between the responsible offroaders and the outlaws.
I was told that would be looked into and options explored to make the distinction more clear.
I think that's a good distinction to be made and exactly the one I addressed when I made my phone call to one of the members of the steering committee.
I expressed my disappointment that not enough differences were immediately noticeable on their site between the responsible offroaders and the outlaws.
I was told that would be looked into and options explored to make the distinction more clear.
Wow, my point finally comes clear.
Blaine,
I do see what you mean. And I also see that we (off roaders) seem to be as divided on these issues as we can be. And therein lies the problem; we don't have a unified voice, or a clear purpose that we are all working toward, or so it seems. So how do we bring ourselves together as one organization? Do we start another organization? I really thought the money I was sending to so many different pro off road organizations was being used for just this purpose. Ther has to be an answer there somewhere.
mrblaine
03-06-08, 04:18 PM
Wow, my point finally comes clear.
The point to me was clear instantly, but it also seemed that the baby got thrown out with the bath water.
Folks with the exact same interests as ours were grouped in with the enemy over some semantics issues that we in turn fell victim to in judging them. A vicious cycle than needs to be broken somewhere.
I'm willing to open my mind and include others into our battles as allies. Anyone else willing to as well?
USMC 0369
03-06-08, 04:30 PM
Can I come back in now? I left when we started misunderstanding each other.
I'm willing to open my mind and include others into our battles as allies. Anyone else willing to as well?
Yes. I am.
mrblaine
03-06-08, 09:19 PM
I can choose to disagree with some of COW's and PEER's statements and ALL OHV outlaw behavior. So can you.
I've gone back to PEER many times and am still looking for something to disagree with.
Is there something in particular that I missed somehow?
I read the minutes from one meeting and they sounded a tad upset over the collection of a barrel cactus in the bed of a pick-up owned by horse riders. It was collected in a National Monument.
They were also upset over TP and human feces in inappropriate places and that's one thing that lead to the closure of a camping area up on the Rubicon.
They are also bothered a bit over some Boy Scouts.
Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to find out what in particular about PEER has you bothered.
FishPOET
03-20-08, 07:09 AM
Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to find out what in particular about PEER has you bothered.
You are absolutely trying to be argumentative.
http://www.peer.org/campaigns/publiclands/orv/index.php
Off-Road “Wreckreation” Plagues Public Lands
Off-road vehicle abuse is a growing problem on our public lands, especially in the West. On any given day, there are reckless riders tearing up fragile lands and creating chaos.
Reckless off-roading is creating a backlash among many public lands users, including those who enjoy viewing wildlife, conducting archaeological research, hiking, camping and hunting. Besides causing extensive damage to natural and cultural resources, off-road vehicles are becoming an increasingly severe public safety and law enforcement problem, and taxpayers will be stuck with the bill to clean up their mess.
PEER and Rangers for Responsible Recreation are campaigning to draw attention to the growing threat posed by off-road vehicle misuse and to assist overmatched state and federal land managers.
Typical one sided view of off road enthusiasts.
Off-Road “Wreckreation” Plagues Public Lands
Big Bold letters in their headline Off-Road "Wreckreation". This is what bothers me about PEER and COW and other similar groups. By agreeing with COW and PEER, you are condoning name calling and disrespectful behavior.
I am bothered by hypocritical OHV enthusiasts who hold responsible MJR OHV enthusiasts to one standard and COW and PEER groups to another.
I am extremely bothered by hypocritical OHV enthusiasts who hijack wheeling threads to jump on their soap box and condemn responsible MJR OHV enthusiasts for their perceived lack of action concerning OHV land use.
Perhaps if said hypocritical OHV enthusiasts would show more appreciation for the hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars MJR members contribute every year to OHV land use issues and much less criticism then maybe the vicious cycle of the off road community tearing itself apart might possibly be broken.
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